Posts by Juan Viejo2

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

Moshe - isn't that Ted Jaracz (on the pope's right) reincarnated as a Catholic priest? Whooda thunk it...

JV

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

00DAD-

RayPublsher used pages from the original transcripts that can be found on the original article at Ex-JW.com.

BTW - a good friend of Ex-JW.com, a reader from Germany, has reconstituted the file and reduced the size down to less than 3Mb. I'll be putting a link to that version and to the missing page 85 on the article later today (Saturday, May 12). That will make it easier for some of you to download it and share with friends.

One last note: My contact in Menlo Park has just informed me that the new federal case is being moved back to San Francisco from San Jose, CA. Apparently none of the judges in San Jose want to deal with the case. More on this later.

JV

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

Thanks, RayPublisher for that graphic. Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

JV

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

Section 4 and 5 are working again. Not sure why they went missing, but they are back. Sorry for the technical problems. This is very rare for one of my sites, so I have to check to see if someone is messing with my coding.

JV

29

Are the Watchtower HQ washing their hands of congregations?

by uk_ex_jw in

it seems more and more from what i read that if there is problems in congregations (i.e.

paedophilia) the wtbts are washing their hands of any wrongdoing and leaving the congregation and its elder's to carry the can.. is that how it is now?.

Juan Viejo2

This definition conflicts with the [now] official position of the Society that it is just like the Catholic Church and everything is controlled "from the top down."

See http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/225582/1/Watchtower-admits-We-are-like-the-Catholic-Church

JV

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

My apologies to the court reporter. My contacts located the missing page (page 85). Apparently it was mishandled during the copy/conversion process to PDF.

I'll try to get it back into the mix in the correct sequence.

Kurtbethel - Thank you for reminding me of that point. That is extremely important on several levels. Here's why:

When I was old enough to register for the draft (1961), I was told to go to the office of the local draft board and fill out my registration. At that time, you simply had to register (no war was in progress) and state if you were married, had any children, or required corrective lenses. If you had any significant physical issues, I think you were supposed to list them. I had very bad knees at the time.

A couple of months later I got my draft card. I was classified as 1-A (eligible for the draft). In early 1963, I had to appear before the draft board (actually just a clerk) to update my status (we'd just been through the Cuban missile crisis and Viet Nam was heating up). My congregation servant provided me with a sheet of paper that explained how to request a ministerial exemption as a concientious objector. If you were interviewed by a draft board clerk, you were to say that you were a minister, a conscientious objector, and you would not serve. If the subject of how you could be a "minister" and not be leader of the congregation, you were to explain that Jehovah's Witnesses did not have "clergy-laity classes," that all JWs who participated in the door-to-door preaching work were "ministers" and qualified for exemption. Needless to say, I did not get my exemption and was still classifed 1-A.

A month before President Kennedy was assassinated (November 22, 1963), my wife gave birth to our first daughter. Six months later, US troops started moving into Viet Nam and the draft boards started pulling numbers. I went to the draft board in our town to update my status to show that I was now married and had a child. I also reaffirmed my status as a minister. Two weeks later I got an updated card showing my status as 3-A (eligible, but deferred due to having underaged dependents). Our draft board was ignoring all requests by JWs for ministerial exemptions. Two of our young men went to prison during that time and both were pioneers. The draft board wasn't buying our ministerial status.

We'd often state (while preaching door to door) that we were "all ministers," and that "Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a 'clergy-laity' class like the Catholic Church."

Things have really changed in the past 50 years. The current crop of elders clearly see themselves as above the rest of the congregation, and therefore see themselves in the same way as most Protestant clergy do now. They don't wear Roman collars or robes when they lead the congregation, but they clearly are set apart as something special within the congregation. JW ministerial servants are basically like altar boys and neophytes.

JV

37

Watchtower admits, "We are like the Catholic Church"

by Juan Viejo2 in

calvin rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the national organization of jehovah's witnesses out of brooklyn, new york.".

while representing one of the defendants during a trial held in san mateo county court in redwood city, california, on february 22, 2012, rouse made this amazing statement:.

"ordinarily, i wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the united states.

Juan Viejo2

Calvin Rouse describes himself as "general counsel for the National Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses out of Brooklyn, New York."

While representing one of the defendants during a trial held in San Mateo County Court in Redwood City, California, on February 22, 2012, Rouse made this amazing statement:

"Ordinarily, I wouldn't be here, but this is one our 13,000 congregations in the United States. We are a heirarchial religion structured just like the Catholic Church..."

After making that amazing admission, he then goes on to almost brag about that fact:

"And when the order from the Pope comes down defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest...in the parish."

"We brought our organizational bylaws book, our rule book here, and we are prepared to present witnesses that this is a hierarchial organization. It is governed from the top down..."

So the matter is settled. After all these years, the Watchtower finally comes right out in court and under oath, one of their own attorneys clearly states that they are just like the Catholic Church. Whatever goes on, even at the local levels, is completely controlled by the headquarters in New York state.

So all those times they said that they were not responsible for what happened in local congregations - the Watchtower leaders and legal representatives were lying. They knew that they were lying and they did that under oath too.

You can read this amazing statement and even more surprising information on my latest post at Ex-JW.com:

Menlo Park Kingdom Hall: The State Lawsuit

Article includes PDF segments of the entire trial transcript (except for one page that was left out by the court reporter).

Feel free to comment. Second federal court case continues in San Jose, California. I'll publish more on that as it becomes available.

JV

56

A Brief History of Racism in Watchtower Publications

by cedars in

i've just completed a lengthy article on the history of racism in the society's publications.

many people (including myself, until recently) aren't aware that the society's early publications were brimming with racist rhetoric, and this only calmed down as the public mood towards racism changed, most notably with the civil rights movement in the 50s/60s.. a few "headliners" from the article are:.

russell segregated blacks from whites for viewings of the photodramarussell believed that the skin of a black man would turn white during the millennial kingdomunder russell, the society's publications portrayed the black races as "degraded" and the white race as "superior"rutherford viewed the blacks as a "race of servants", and spoke of "sobering the southern negro" in an article against prohibitionunder rutherford, the golden age slammed uncle tom's cabin (a work that helped end slavery) as being "the work of satan"; the same article branded spaniards a "backwards race"rutherford accused "jewish business men" of "oppressing the peoples of many nations"in 1929 the golden age (acknowledged by the society as essentially the same magazine as the modern awake!

Juan Viejo2

BTW - I forgot to finish my story. My wife and I did get married at the Kingdom Hall and it had more attendees than a Sunday evening talk by the CO. It was packed. My wife eventually was baptized and remained a JW for a few years after I left the religion. We were together for almost ten years and have three daughters.

But the whole controversy surrounding our Kingdom Hall wedding was one more straw on the stack that eventually led me to leave a few years later. Norvell and his sister's family moved to Georgia to serve where the "need was greater." I'm sure they saw a lot more discrimination in Athens, GA then they ever did in Riverside, CA - but still - discrimination is wrong no matter where it is practiced or how it is applied. A little bit of discrimination is just as bad as a lot of discrimination in my book, no matter who practices it.

If the Watchtower was truly "God's nation," it would not have allowed discrimination due to ethnicity or race in any of its Kingdom Halls or as far as who they chose to be among their leaders. Good for Samuel Herd, but there should have been several on the Governing Body by now. We've have Australians and Germans and even (God forbid) and Irishman. With blacks, hispanics, Southeast Asians, and Pacific Islanders making up most of the growth in the organization, I would hope that they find their way to the highest ranks of the WTBTS soon.

JV

56

A Brief History of Racism in Watchtower Publications

by cedars in

i've just completed a lengthy article on the history of racism in the society's publications.

many people (including myself, until recently) aren't aware that the society's early publications were brimming with racist rhetoric, and this only calmed down as the public mood towards racism changed, most notably with the civil rights movement in the 50s/60s.. a few "headliners" from the article are:.

russell segregated blacks from whites for viewings of the photodramarussell believed that the skin of a black man would turn white during the millennial kingdomunder russell, the society's publications portrayed the black races as "degraded" and the white race as "superior"rutherford viewed the blacks as a "race of servants", and spoke of "sobering the southern negro" in an article against prohibitionunder rutherford, the golden age slammed uncle tom's cabin (a work that helped end slavery) as being "the work of satan"; the same article branded spaniards a "backwards race"rutherford accused "jewish business men" of "oppressing the peoples of many nations"in 1929 the golden age (acknowledged by the society as essentially the same magazine as the modern awake!

Juan Viejo2

Mr. Falcon,

Cedars provided photocopies of just about everything he quoted. True, they are excerpts, but you can get PDF copies of all of the original magazines at:

http://archive.org/search.php?query=golden%20age%20magazine

archive.org has copies of all the old books and magazines from about 1946 back to the beginning. So yes, copies of complete magazines are available.

I can assure all of the readers of this thread that Cedars only scratched the surface. He could easily find enough documentation and personal testimonies to do several more articles on the subject of racism in and out of the organization.

I was raised in Riverside, California and spent most of my youth as a JW there. My best friend at the time was an African-American fellow who was also a JW.

I remember when I was married in the Kingdom Hall and was 19 years old, I told my parents that I wanted a young man (about 5 years older than I) to be my best man. He had just been released from federal prison at Terminal Island (Long Beach, CA) after spendng two years for being a JW conscientious objector. He also happened to be black, but was much beloved by all in the congregation and was the blood brother of a lady that my mother had "studied into the truth."

My brother was too young, and my best friend had personal issues that prevented him from standing in for me. So I wanted Norvell (the young African-American) to stand in as my best man. When the word got around, I had several white JWs come up to me and ask me if I "thought that was the best thing to do?" They also approached my fiance (who was not yet a baptized JW) how she felt about having a black person in her wedding party.

Understand that this was 1962. Riverside, CA was not known for being an extremely racist town (there was more discrimination against Hispanics than blacks in our town), but it was still geographically divided as far as neighborhoods were concerned (California's Unruh Equal Housing Act would not be passed for another few years.) We had several Hispanics and African-Americans in our congregation and there was no obvious discrimination among JWs.

But this is what happened about two weeks before the wedding: I first get a call from the Assistant Congregation Servant. He wanted to double check about having a black person as my best man. "Are you really sure the bride and her family are OK with that?"

I replied that my wife's family were not coming to the wedding (they were Catholic and opposed to our marriage), and that the best man was the choice of the groom and the maid/matron of honor was the choice of the bride. "Those are the choices we've made. I'm OK with her choice and she is OK with mine."

"OK. You may get a call from the Congregation Servant. He may have to get an OK from the Circuit Servant and maybe the District Servant to go ahead with the wedding, but we'll get back to you."

A few days later my father called me and told me that the CongServ had called him and gently urged him to get me to change my mind. My dad said, "The Congregation Servant suggested several other brothers like "JDT" (who was a closeted gay) and "RH" and "BD" - all friends of yours. It's up to you, John, and you know we love Norvell, but you have to consider their suggestions."

Also undertstand that the Congregation Servant and the Assistant CS were both close friends of my family, and also loved Norvell and his family. They are as far from being racist as any white man could claim to be in the early 1960s. But they were getting cold feet.

What is surprising about this incident is that they were reluctant for me to choose a black man to stand for me - a man who was a baptized and dedicated JW - in fact a pioneer publisher - and someone who had just gone to prison for holding to his faith. And yet they never once suggested that the wedding should not go on in the Kingdom Hall due to the fact that my bride-to-be was not yet baptized! I believe that even then, both parties in the wedding had to be baptized JWs (this may have been added later - not sure). But that issue never came up because my fiance was attending meetings and going along with us in field service.

I've written other posts about the subtle racism that existed in the 1960s (blacks in one car, whites in another; no black servants at the time, not even someone like Norvell; and many other little issues that existed). All of the Kingdom Halls in the US southern states were segregated. Whites could visit (and were welcomed) in black Kingdom Halls. Blacks were discouraged from going to white Kingdom Halls, but JWs would not reject them if they did. They just could not be members there.

Cedars has done a great job on this subject. As usual, my praise for his work can not match its actual value to us all.

JV

45

Seeker4 Here - Anyone on Who Remembers Me From H20 & JWD?

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

seeker4 - robert smith from vermont.

former jw, elder, pioneer, etc.

i've got a few thousand posts on these sites, but haven't posted for a year or two.

Juan Viejo2

BTTT -

Seeker4 - you have a PM

JV